Ende des Monats besuche Ich ein Atommüll Endlager in Niedersachsen!
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“I don't believe in long-term nuclear waste warning messages” the leader of the nuclear waste storage facility continued. "I subscribe to the philosophy that we should ultimately forget about this place.”
She explained herself quite rationally, saying that any warning sign is at the end of the day a sign. Shutting everything down, not leaving anything to notice behind, except for a landscape indistinguishable from nature, would be ideal. She fantasized about closing it all down and growing green grass on top for a few minutes.
It was also her first time standing here, underground, at the actual site where nuclear waste will be stored, as in her years of managing this facility, often from afar in the name of the federal company for radioactive waste disposal, she was never underground. Unlike all the other people in white suits, she wasn't greeted by any of the workers down here.
She continued saying that no civilization before the industrial revolution was able to dig as deep as this nuclear waste will be stored. Once we were able to dig so deeply, we also had devices that could detect radioactivity. In that regard she stated that “We cannot take responsibility for future civilizations.”
While I see her logic, I disagree. There will be records of this place, no matter how far underground, it will never be indistinguishable from nature. Half of all of Germany's nuclear waste will be driven here. That's tens of thousands of trucks from the entire country with one destination: Salzgitter, Lower-Saxony.
Enough money to solve homelessness multiple times over will be poured into one dot of a place. So close to a city with people remembering and retelling what was here. Especially with its past of mining iron ore, of which only a fraction of a percent has ever been dug out, I cannot believe that humans will leave this place behind, and when they do find it, there will be no message telling them to stop.
Our species has existed for 300,000 years. The first recorded civilization is around 10,000 years old, the burning of the library of Alexandria, which made humanity forget so much of ancient civilization, was not even two thousand years ago, and the dark ages ended 600 years ago. Not even 200 years ago, we still weren't finished with the industrial revolution, and only 80 years ago, one human lifetime, the first nuclear reactor was built. Most of all nuclear waste was produced in the past decades, yet here we are dumping it below the earth's outer crust, and making decisions for a period of time no living being could ever comprehend, only because we valued immediate reward over long term wellbeing.
Most of our history is forgotten, and the history that is known is always perceived through a miopic, contemporary lense. Yet in all we believe to understand about ourselves, no human, be they king or emperor, has ever been as greedy, as self-centered, as reckless as to make a decision for future generations for as long as we've done without even flinching. This underground nuclear waste facility stands as a monument, a time capsule for everything the future needs to know about humanity under capitalism.
The specific clay formation this facility is dug into has not changed within any measurable geological time. It's ideal for long term storage like this, because when closed off without any air gaps, all layers of stone and rubble and dirt artificially re-done, the nuclear waste is supposed to just stay within that blob of clay which was here before the dinosaurs were wiped out, and will be here once we are gone too.
After we've filled it up, there's no place in Germany for the other half of nuclear waste. What reasonable human could suggest continuing the energy production that lead to this waste in the first place, as if it was nothing?
@ErikUden
Still better than the ash and emissions from coal plants. -
@ErikUden I know this is a serious topic... But why do the first two photos look like coming from Doom 3?
@TheGymNerd It felt like a fun underground park. With the temperature, we even joked about building a pool here. If only the government would pour billions into turning the Doom theme park into a real thing, I mean, it's already so close to earth and it will be the worst place for humans to live, to a degree you could argue that it is hell.
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@ErikUden
Still better than the ash and emissions from coal plants.@dzwiedziu there doesn't need to be one or the other, renewables exist and are the cheapest option.
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“I don't believe in long-term nuclear waste warning messages” the leader of the nuclear waste storage facility continued. "I subscribe to the philosophy that we should ultimately forget about this place.”
She explained herself quite rationally, saying that any warning sign is at the end of the day a sign. Shutting everything down, not leaving anything to notice behind, except for a landscape indistinguishable from nature, would be ideal. She fantasized about closing it all down and growing green grass on top for a few minutes.
It was also her first time standing here, underground, at the actual site where nuclear waste will be stored, as in her years of managing this facility, often from afar in the name of the federal company for radioactive waste disposal, she was never underground. Unlike all the other people in white suits, she wasn't greeted by any of the workers down here.
She continued saying that no civilization before the industrial revolution was able to dig as deep as this nuclear waste will be stored. Once we were able to dig so deeply, we also had devices that could detect radioactivity. In that regard she stated that “We cannot take responsibility for future civilizations.”
While I see her logic, I disagree. There will be records of this place, no matter how far underground, it will never be indistinguishable from nature. Half of all of Germany's nuclear waste will be driven here. That's tens of thousands of trucks from the entire country with one destination: Salzgitter, Lower-Saxony.
Enough money to solve homelessness multiple times over will be poured into one dot of a place. So close to a city with people remembering and retelling what was here. Especially with its past of mining iron ore, of which only a fraction of a percent has ever been dug out, I cannot believe that humans will leave this place behind, and when they do find it, there will be no message telling them to stop.
Our species has existed for 300,000 years. The first recorded civilization is around 10,000 years old, the burning of the library of Alexandria, which made humanity forget so much of ancient civilization, was not even two thousand years ago, and the dark ages ended 600 years ago. Not even 200 years ago, we still weren't finished with the industrial revolution, and only 80 years ago, one human lifetime, the first nuclear reactor was built. Most of all nuclear waste was produced in the past decades, yet here we are dumping it below the earth's outer crust, and making decisions for a period of time no living being could ever comprehend, only because we valued immediate reward over long term wellbeing.
Most of our history is forgotten, and the history that is known is always perceived through a miopic, contemporary lense. Yet in all we believe to understand about ourselves, no human, be they king or emperor, has ever been as greedy, as self-centered, as reckless as to make a decision for future generations for as long as we've done without even flinching. This underground nuclear waste facility stands as a monument, a time capsule for everything the future needs to know about humanity under capitalism.
The specific clay formation this facility is dug into has not changed within any measurable geological time. It's ideal for long term storage like this, because when closed off without any air gaps, all layers of stone and rubble and dirt artificially re-done, the nuclear waste is supposed to just stay within that blob of clay which was here before the dinosaurs were wiped out, and will be here once we are gone too.
After we've filled it up, there's no place in Germany for the other half of nuclear waste. What reasonable human could suggest continuing the energy production that lead to this waste in the first place, as if it was nothing?
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“I don't believe in long-term nuclear waste warning messages” the leader of the nuclear waste storage facility continued. "I subscribe to the philosophy that we should ultimately forget about this place.”
She explained herself quite rationally, saying that any warning sign is at the end of the day a sign. Shutting everything down, not leaving anything to notice behind, except for a landscape indistinguishable from nature, would be ideal. She fantasized about closing it all down and growing green grass on top for a few minutes.
It was also her first time standing here, underground, at the actual site where nuclear waste will be stored, as in her years of managing this facility, often from afar in the name of the federal company for radioactive waste disposal, she was never underground. Unlike all the other people in white suits, she wasn't greeted by any of the workers down here.
She continued saying that no civilization before the industrial revolution was able to dig as deep as this nuclear waste will be stored. Once we were able to dig so deeply, we also had devices that could detect radioactivity. In that regard she stated that “We cannot take responsibility for future civilizations.”
While I see her logic, I disagree. There will be records of this place, no matter how far underground, it will never be indistinguishable from nature. Half of all of Germany's nuclear waste will be driven here. That's tens of thousands of trucks from the entire country with one destination: Salzgitter, Lower-Saxony.
Enough money to solve homelessness multiple times over will be poured into one dot of a place. So close to a city with people remembering and retelling what was here. Especially with its past of mining iron ore, of which only a fraction of a percent has ever been dug out, I cannot believe that humans will leave this place behind, and when they do find it, there will be no message telling them to stop.
Our species has existed for 300,000 years. The first recorded civilization is around 10,000 years old, the burning of the library of Alexandria, which made humanity forget so much of ancient civilization, was not even two thousand years ago, and the dark ages ended 600 years ago. Not even 200 years ago, we still weren't finished with the industrial revolution, and only 80 years ago, one human lifetime, the first nuclear reactor was built. Most of all nuclear waste was produced in the past decades, yet here we are dumping it below the earth's outer crust, and making decisions for a period of time no living being could ever comprehend, only because we valued immediate reward over long term wellbeing.
Most of our history is forgotten, and the history that is known is always perceived through a miopic, contemporary lense. Yet in all we believe to understand about ourselves, no human, be they king or emperor, has ever been as greedy, as self-centered, as reckless as to make a decision for future generations for as long as we've done without even flinching. This underground nuclear waste facility stands as a monument, a time capsule for everything the future needs to know about humanity under capitalism.
The specific clay formation this facility is dug into has not changed within any measurable geological time. It's ideal for long term storage like this, because when closed off without any air gaps, all layers of stone and rubble and dirt artificially re-done, the nuclear waste is supposed to just stay within that blob of clay which was here before the dinosaurs were wiped out, and will be here once we are gone too.
After we've filled it up, there's no place in Germany for the other half of nuclear waste. What reasonable human could suggest continuing the energy production that lead to this waste in the first place, as if it was nothing?
They chose this facility to be the long term nuclear waste storage, despite nowadays being in the middle of Germany, because back in the day it was right next to the border with the GDR. Like France building their nuclear reactors into an enclave within Belgium, it's always safe once it needs to be built in your backyard.
Now, we're storing nuclear waste at the heart of this country.
We had a meeting discussing its safety before and after the underground visit. Wherever we went, we were greeted by the old German miner's greeting “Glück auf!” literally meaning “may lodes of ore be opened” – not quite the timely statement as we hope that whatever is stored here is rather not opened any time soon.
The meetings were strange. There was this energy the room I couldn't quite put my finger on. The political party I represented here isn't quite known for their pro-nuclear stance, rather the opposite is the case: when the name of a former member of Bundestag from Die Linke fell, Victor Perli, the room went dead silent. “He made us sweat many times with his questions” the leader of the facility said. Interestingly enough, by pure coincidence, I met Victor Perli at his first public presentation since leaving the Bundestag less than a month earlier, and he gave me a quick brief about Konrad, allowing me to ask the hard hitting questions.
"I can understand why you don't trust us. Our past actions have provided reasons for this."
The leader of the facility said.
Victor Perli was also supposed to be here himself, but sadly had to cancel last minute, I'm sure the owners of this facility were glad about that, as it probably wouldn't have helped the positive energy in the room they tried to create. Yet the two representatives from the AG Schacht Konrad (Working Group Mine Konrad), a local activist organization that has been opposing their town being turned into long term nuclear waste storage for the past 40 years, heated up many debates too.
This whole event was lobbyism. They wanted Die Linke (The Left) to no longer oppose this facility and agree to it in case we enter the state parliament in the 2027 elections. Additionally, they wanted the now two representatives of the region who are now in the federal parliament (Bundestag), Cem Ince and Jorrit Bosch, both present, not hopefully not turn into a successor of Victor Perli. Since both once worked for Mr. Perli, that endeavor was lost before it started.
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They chose this facility to be the long term nuclear waste storage, despite nowadays being in the middle of Germany, because back in the day it was right next to the border with the GDR. Like France building their nuclear reactors into an enclave within Belgium, it's always safe once it needs to be built in your backyard.
Now, we're storing nuclear waste at the heart of this country.
We had a meeting discussing its safety before and after the underground visit. Wherever we went, we were greeted by the old German miner's greeting “Glück auf!” literally meaning “may lodes of ore be opened” – not quite the timely statement as we hope that whatever is stored here is rather not opened any time soon.
The meetings were strange. There was this energy the room I couldn't quite put my finger on. The political party I represented here isn't quite known for their pro-nuclear stance, rather the opposite is the case: when the name of a former member of Bundestag from Die Linke fell, Victor Perli, the room went dead silent. “He made us sweat many times with his questions” the leader of the facility said. Interestingly enough, by pure coincidence, I met Victor Perli at his first public presentation since leaving the Bundestag less than a month earlier, and he gave me a quick brief about Konrad, allowing me to ask the hard hitting questions.
"I can understand why you don't trust us. Our past actions have provided reasons for this."
The leader of the facility said.
Victor Perli was also supposed to be here himself, but sadly had to cancel last minute, I'm sure the owners of this facility were glad about that, as it probably wouldn't have helped the positive energy in the room they tried to create. Yet the two representatives from the AG Schacht Konrad (Working Group Mine Konrad), a local activist organization that has been opposing their town being turned into long term nuclear waste storage for the past 40 years, heated up many debates too.
This whole event was lobbyism. They wanted Die Linke (The Left) to no longer oppose this facility and agree to it in case we enter the state parliament in the 2027 elections. Additionally, they wanted the now two representatives of the region who are now in the federal parliament (Bundestag), Cem Ince and Jorrit Bosch, both present, not hopefully not turn into a successor of Victor Perli. Since both once worked for Mr. Perli, that endeavor was lost before it started.
A few images showing the transformation of an average citizen of the overworld to a miner going down an elevator traveling four meters a second.
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A few images showing the transformation of an average citizen of the overworld to a miner going down an elevator traveling four meters a second.
Underground, busses would be too large, but simple cars with seats for five people not big enough, so they've modified a truck to seat 18 people, which can be driven to any place within the huge underground tunnel system. This is how we navigate this future nuclear waste storage facility. There were no maps and little to no signs, these drivers just knew the place by heart.
To all of us visitors, it was closer to a rollercoaster ride. Many of us have driven uphill, I believe very few people drove 200 meters downhill inside of a cave. A terrifying experience. This underworld may seem lawless, but German road laws still applied.
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Underground, busses would be too large, but simple cars with seats for five people not big enough, so they've modified a truck to seat 18 people, which can be driven to any place within the huge underground tunnel system. This is how we navigate this future nuclear waste storage facility. There were no maps and little to no signs, these drivers just knew the place by heart.
To all of us visitors, it was closer to a rollercoaster ride. Many of us have driven uphill, I believe very few people drove 200 meters downhill inside of a cave. A terrifying experience. This underworld may seem lawless, but German road laws still applied.
What a ride!
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What a ride!
Jetzt kommt der Blitzer! Die Straßenverkehrsordnung gilt überall in Deutschland, auch einen Kilometer unter der Erde.
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A short while ago I was allowed to visit a long term nuclear waste storage facility, built to hold low and mid tier radioactive material for geological time (hundreds of thousands to a few million years).
I entered early in the morning and got into an elevator driving me 800 meters deep, with the complex tunnel system we toured going up to a kilometer down from the surface. I came up in the late afternoon a changed man due to what I've seen.
Thank you very much for your pictures and impressions.
In the 1990s, I once visited the Asse mine in my capacity as a youth representative (works council).
Since it was not an official tour for visitors such as politicians or environmental organisations, the whole thing turned out to be rather unvarnished. Even back then, hardly anyone believed that all the rubbish could be removed.
Thousands upon thousands of yellow barrels, some of them dumped from heights
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of several metres. Deformed, wedged together and rusting.
Now, 40 years later, water is leaking in everywhere. Once something is down here, it takes an enormous amount of effort to get it back up. Geological forces such as water, but also deformations, will find their way. Since much of it will probably emerge altered in its composition, as if pressed through a mangle or cutter, I don't think signs will help.
Perhaps warnings such as artefacts cast in resin (cf. amber), such as @ErikUden
skulls, plasticised cancer tumours and the like for low cultures, and science cast in gold for developed civilisations, could deter and explain.
If climate chaos does not wreak worse havoc on humanity.
“Innocent” nature has and always will suffer under humanity.
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Thank you very much for your pictures and impressions.
In the 1990s, I once visited the Asse mine in my capacity as a youth representative (works council).
Since it was not an official tour for visitors such as politicians or environmental organisations, the whole thing turned out to be rather unvarnished. Even back then, hardly anyone believed that all the rubbish could be removed.
Thousands upon thousands of yellow barrels, some of them dumped from heights
of several metres. Deformed, wedged together and rusting.
Now, 40 years later, water is leaking in everywhere. Once something is down here, it takes an enormous amount of effort to get it back up. Geological forces such as water, but also deformations, will find their way. Since much of it will probably emerge altered in its composition, as if pressed through a mangle or cutter, I don't think signs will help.
Perhaps warnings such as artefacts cast in resin (cf. amber), such as @ErikUden
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skulls, plasticised cancer tumours and the like for low cultures, and science cast in gold for developed civilisations, could deter and explain.
If climate chaos does not wreak worse havoc on humanity.
“Innocent” nature has and always will suffer under humanity.
And what applied to Asse will also apply to Konrad.
Everything that is toxic will be stored here in large quantities. Not only radioactive substances, but also heavy metals, asbestos and chemical waste. Undeclared or falsely declared, greased by bribery, these substances will find their way in.
If, in geological times, there should still be a higher intelligence:
The region around today's Salzgitter will become dangerous.
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Ende des Monats besuche Ich ein Atommüll Endlager in Niedersachsen! Was sollte Ich dort für Fragen stellen / was interessiert euch?
@ErikUden
1. Ich frage mich, was das Ganze den Steuerzahler so noch insgesamt kosten wird. Die Betreiber müssen ja Rücklagen bilden, wenn ein AKW gebaut und betrieben wird, für den Rückbau und die Lagerung des Restmülls. Aber ich glaube nicht, dass die Betreiber Rücklagen für 1000+ Jahre bereitstellen müssen. Ergo kommt der Staat für alle zukünftig anfallenden Kosten auf.2. Was wird das kosten, die ganzen "verklappten" Fässer da wieder zu bergen und diesmal "ordentlich" einzulagern.
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A short while ago I was allowed to visit a long term nuclear waste storage facility, built to hold low and mid tier radioactive material for geological time (hundreds of thousands to a few million years).
I entered early in the morning and got into an elevator driving me 800 meters deep, with the complex tunnel system we toured going up to a kilometer down from the surface. I came up in the late afternoon a changed man due to what I've seen.
What's your current opinion on the creation of nuclear waste? (sincere question. Not being sarcastic.)
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What's your current opinion on the creation of nuclear waste? (sincere question. Not being sarcastic.)
@Uair you mean nuclear reactors? I think given what I've now learned regarding the long term nuclear waste storage, I don't like it
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@ErikUden
1. Ich frage mich, was das Ganze den Steuerzahler so noch insgesamt kosten wird. Die Betreiber müssen ja Rücklagen bilden, wenn ein AKW gebaut und betrieben wird, für den Rückbau und die Lagerung des Restmülls. Aber ich glaube nicht, dass die Betreiber Rücklagen für 1000+ Jahre bereitstellen müssen. Ergo kommt der Staat für alle zukünftig anfallenden Kosten auf.2. Was wird das kosten, die ganzen "verklappten" Fässer da wieder zu bergen und diesmal "ordentlich" einzulagern.
@Brokar hier steht was zu den Kosten: voraussichtlich 5,8 Milliarden Euro, doch die Zahl erhöht sich jedes Jahr. Darüber hinaus beinhaltet das nicht die Kosten für den Transport und die Einlagerung des Atommülls, sondern ausschließlich des Baus der Anlage.
Erik Uden 🍑 (@ErikUden@mastodon.de)
Attached: 4 images Once back up, the second conference ensued. However, with less energy due to already being 6 hours underground, both sides began throwing some harsh realities at one another, without trying to uphold some nice facade. The good food they made in the hopes of us being more friendly towards them helped, though. If you take a look at that second image, the federal company for radioactive waste disposal is showing the two different simulations regarding the longevity of their facility. In the case of sweet water entering the site, it could only last 300,000 years, with worst case conditions applied (nuclear waste containers vanishing into thin air, water not being obstructed, etc.), but with salt water it may take over a million years to reach and bring the radioactive material above ground. Of course, all of those numbers are without any human element. At a specific point in time someone raised the question of a foreign army occupying Konrad in the case of war, the owners brushed it off as something they can't plan for. While that's true, given the Russian army once occupied a nuclear power plant, it's not unrealistic to also strategically take control of such a facility, especially since for forty years half of Germany's nuclear waste will be carried here. Additionally, the question of the accuracy of the simulation of their system was asked by a representative of the AG Konrad, an activist group that's been protesting against their town being turned into a nuclear waste storage facility for over 40 years. That's another question Victor Perli raised: the surrounding water streams do not yet have the required approval (wasserrechtliche Zulassung der Gebinde). A representative responded that, despite trying to get such an approval in the past, she doesn't believe the nuclear facility needs to have it. > “We don't need a permit for under water regulation. We do something completely different from the agricultural facilities these laws were designed for. We cannot take on a product responsibility for 100 years or more. Usually, these permits are only for about 10 years. Accountability for a time period we are planning with isn't something the German law accounts for.” We concede. However, the activists in the room are currently still suing due to their decision to disregard the law when it comes to water regulation. The other activist raises the point that 3D seismic scans were never made before putting all trust into this facility. The representative of the facility responds that their method of drilling holes and taking samples in addition to 2D seismic was far more accurate than 3D seismic could be. She calls the process “raw material exploration”. The conversation gets heated and technical. They concede, and admit mistakes in the past. The representative of Konrad says that by modern standards, this facility would never be chosen for long term nuclear waste storage. They are keeping the security up to the newest standards, despite legally not being required to. A conversation about the exact amount of nuclear waste that needs to be stored is started. Apparently, old GDR nuclear reactors still haven't been fully cleaned yet, so the amount of waste they may produce are incredibly shaky and rough estimates. Only one of all of Germany's nuclear reactors have actually been dismantled. The others are in that process. [The problem of the Asse II](https://muenchen.social/@hundhamm/115533449656425831), a failed long term nuclear waste storage facility that leaked radioactive material to the outside, which is close by and was also managed by the same organization as Konrad, was raised. The question whether all nuclear waste there can be “scraped off” is raised by the Konrad representatives, they don't have high hopes for that. A Microsoft teams notification pops up on the Laptop of the person with the presentation open, I could not read the message, but it was sent into a group with the name “Handling of the lawsuit”, which I found hilarious.
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