I think you're missing the point, if you put 1000 calories into an animal you get about 100-300 out depending on how you measure efficiency. So if your goal is to feed humans efficiently then 70% of the crops you grew harvested and fed to the non human animal were calories that did not end up in the human, they are lost to heat and the environment during the life of the non human animal.

Therefore raising and killing non-human animals causes more crop deaths, so whether or not you think plants feel pain vegans kill a lot less plants also, so this isnt a case of "Oh I kill animals and you kill plants" its more like you kill animals that vegans dont AND you kill like 3-10x more plants than vegans

You keep talking about factory farming as if theres such a thing as a humane slaughter. If someone gave you the choice today to be killed in your sleep sometime next week and then remove your memory of making the decision, would you say yes to that arrangement? If not then it can't be that humane can it its still murder cows pigs chickens all want to live JUST LIKE YOU. And just as it would be murder to kill you painlessly in your sleep its murder to do it to cows pigs and chickens too

There's some complexity here. Consider that farmland only accounts for about 7% of the Earth's total land. Pasture land, only suitable for feeding animals and not raising crops, is about 25% of the Earth's total land.

It's foolish to have a human grow crops to feed animals, totally agreed. That makes no sense. However, for the 25% of land that's only suitable for grazing ruminants, a human does not have to grow the crop, the animal eats something a human can't eat. And that's the power of ruminant nutrition

India is amazing in this respect, their shepherding was striking. Seeing the attitude of cattle in India gainly eat the dozens of native plant varieties everywhere was fascinating compared to other countries' cattle chewing their cud.

Yeah. I did omnivore, I did vegan, now I'm doing something even more niche, carnivore (which nobody likes).

The world has lots of options and perspectives, better to see a lifestyle you like and adopt it rather then trying to change everyone around you.

How long have you been meat-exclusive?

"better to see a lifestyle you like and adopt it rather then trying to change everyone around you."

couldn't agree more.

9 months, then I feel off the wagon pizza and rice and the like, now I'm back on the wagon.

I couldn't feel better, things that always hurt stopped hurting. The worst thing is I know I'd feel better when would get back on the wagon but it's so easy to normalize all the aches and pains of life.

Please feel free to be vague or non-answery, I'm just curious.

What things used to hurt and no longer hurt? What is your daily diet? Absolutely zero fiber? What is the broad diet picture before and after?

No worries, I have a community oh here about it

Just from when I fell off the wagon last time and when I started up again:

• shoulder pain went away
• knee pain went away
• bone Spurs in toe stopped hurting
• more energy, alot more
• intangibles, I feel like my thinking is more clear and precise. I have better word choice in conversations

These pains were not minor, they were significant detractors to my life. The shoulder injury was from working out, and it hadn't healed since I fell off the wagon. But within a week of getting back on the wagon it went away

My gym trainer has remarked that I have a lot more energy now, he could notice when I switched.

Daily diet: ground beef and eggs, variety when I have social means, for treats I eat cheese

Yeah, zero fibre, no issues pooping I swear.

Broad diet picture: before omnivore lots of carbs, addicted eating patterns lots of snacks.

After carnivore: tend to one big meal a day, no desire for snacks, food noise is very muted. Shooting for zero carbohydrates.

"no issues pooping I swear"

Oh no worries haha, I went carnivore for a while in China. Fat helps in evacuation.

Carbs = Crazy naptime for me.

First week I stopped eating carbs was pretty wild, first fasting moreso, omni omad with occasional fasting is my routine now.

Do you just put ground beef into fried eggs or omelets? Do you try to make different dishes?

I basically make the one dish at home. 350g of ground beef, browned, add in 6 eggs, stir, delicious bowl of fatty protein.

I'm impressed that you can go in and out of fasting, it's a great skill to have!

If you really think that plants have feelings then you must pick one of the following: you shouldnt trim bushes without anesthetic because theyre alive just like my dog, or: this dog is just like a bush so no need for the anaesthic just cut them open.

You didnt respond to the other point which is that you being vegan would kill far far fewer plants, this is due to something called trophic energy loss, it is thermodynamically inefficient to filter your nutrients through someone elses body bc 90% of the calories are "lost" keeping that other creature alive

I was vegan in India for one month and vegetarian for two without noticing because the food is so good.

you were wasting your breath. they had already admitted it.

admitting what? that they think a non-human animal's right to life is contingent on how tasty vegan food is?

never be the first one to bring up taste. but when your interlocutor does, pounce on it.

Thanks, I'm very interested in how different diets affect human metabolism, and since I have one at my disposal, you know?

There are so many diets with such interesting and radically different effects, I have to try all of them.

And if I happen to be Indian vegan and then visit China next? Uh yeah, beer-fried duck is back on the menu.

We live so briefly, and the world is so vast.

When I went carni in China, there was this guy on my walk home selling yak jerky, which is still by far no contest my favorite jerky, and I went from a snack every other day to bags of that stuff for months.

I was like hey, good enough for hundreds of generations of mongolians...and dang are the mongolians correct.

yep, using arguments like "but vegan food can taste great" although true decentres the victim and centres the abuser