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isurg

  1. Home
  2. Unpopular Opinion
  3. The United States should be 50 independent countries.

The United States should be 50 independent countries.

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  • R This user is from outside of this forum
    R This user is from outside of this forum
    ramble81@lemmy.zip
    wrote last edited by
    #1

    The more I think about things, and how well stuff works in other countries, i believe it’s due to the sheer size and demographic makeup of the country. I often times wonder if it would be better managed with more of an EU style system where certain standards are core across all states and then leave each country to truly govern themselves.

    I’m fairly certain this was the original goal when the country was founded and the idea of states rights, but at some it feels like things got flipped on their heads.

    (Note, this is probably more of a rant and I know there are definitely things that would not work as well in that situation, but part of me wonders if it’d be a better solution than what we’re stuck with right now)

    H P 2 Replies Last reply
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    • R ramble81@lemmy.zip

      The more I think about things, and how well stuff works in other countries, i believe it’s due to the sheer size and demographic makeup of the country. I often times wonder if it would be better managed with more of an EU style system where certain standards are core across all states and then leave each country to truly govern themselves.

      I’m fairly certain this was the original goal when the country was founded and the idea of states rights, but at some it feels like things got flipped on their heads.

      (Note, this is probably more of a rant and I know there are definitely things that would not work as well in that situation, but part of me wonders if it’d be a better solution than what we’re stuck with right now)

      H This user is from outside of this forum
      H This user is from outside of this forum
      hexadecimalsky@lemmy.world
      wrote last edited by
      #2

      People in the U.S.A. forget that "state" means a sovereign nation. Why are the "United States" not actually states? Taxes. Actually thats basically it. After what would be known as U.S.A. was founded, taxes where opt in. but the burgeoning central government was on the hook for all its international debts. and of course no state wanted to pay taxes...or did pay taxes. So they restructured and the "federal" goverment became superior to all states and its power has grown while states rights diminished. So yeah, in some ways wed be alot better if states where thier own sovereignty, and the founding fathers even put a stipulation that any state unhappy with the union can leave, but the last states to do that got the **** beat out of them and it was made illegal (CSA / Civil war).

      TLDR; Founding states didn't want to pay taxes, federal government was formed to collect taxes.

      P N 2 Replies Last reply
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      • H hexadecimalsky@lemmy.world

        People in the U.S.A. forget that "state" means a sovereign nation. Why are the "United States" not actually states? Taxes. Actually thats basically it. After what would be known as U.S.A. was founded, taxes where opt in. but the burgeoning central government was on the hook for all its international debts. and of course no state wanted to pay taxes...or did pay taxes. So they restructured and the "federal" goverment became superior to all states and its power has grown while states rights diminished. So yeah, in some ways wed be alot better if states where thier own sovereignty, and the founding fathers even put a stipulation that any state unhappy with the union can leave, but the last states to do that got the **** beat out of them and it was made illegal (CSA / Civil war).

        TLDR; Founding states didn't want to pay taxes, federal government was formed to collect taxes.

        P This user is from outside of this forum
        P This user is from outside of this forum
        partial_accumen@lemmy.world
        wrote last edited by
        #3

        the founding fathers even put a stipulation that any state unhappy with the union can leave, but the last states to do that got the **** beat out of them and it was made illegal (CSA / Civil war).

        The CSA didn't get their asses kicked for leaving the Union. The CSA got their asses kicked for starting the hot war by attacking Fort Sumter 2 months after seceded. The CSA also doubled-down on keeping slavery legal in their Constitution which burned any bridges for support from Europe which had already abolished slavery long before.

        FYI, I didn't downvote you.

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        • H hexadecimalsky@lemmy.world

          People in the U.S.A. forget that "state" means a sovereign nation. Why are the "United States" not actually states? Taxes. Actually thats basically it. After what would be known as U.S.A. was founded, taxes where opt in. but the burgeoning central government was on the hook for all its international debts. and of course no state wanted to pay taxes...or did pay taxes. So they restructured and the "federal" goverment became superior to all states and its power has grown while states rights diminished. So yeah, in some ways wed be alot better if states where thier own sovereignty, and the founding fathers even put a stipulation that any state unhappy with the union can leave, but the last states to do that got the **** beat out of them and it was made illegal (CSA / Civil war).

          TLDR; Founding states didn't want to pay taxes, federal government was formed to collect taxes.

          N This user is from outside of this forum
          N This user is from outside of this forum
          nabdad@lemmy.world
          wrote last edited by
          #4

          and the founding fathers even put a stipulation that any state unhappy with the union can leave

          What are you referring to?

          H 1 Reply Last reply
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          • R ramble81@lemmy.zip

            The more I think about things, and how well stuff works in other countries, i believe it’s due to the sheer size and demographic makeup of the country. I often times wonder if it would be better managed with more of an EU style system where certain standards are core across all states and then leave each country to truly govern themselves.

            I’m fairly certain this was the original goal when the country was founded and the idea of states rights, but at some it feels like things got flipped on their heads.

            (Note, this is probably more of a rant and I know there are definitely things that would not work as well in that situation, but part of me wonders if it’d be a better solution than what we’re stuck with right now)

            P This user is from outside of this forum
            P This user is from outside of this forum
            partial_accumen@lemmy.world
            wrote last edited by
            #5

            There are lots of things that have been accomplished in the USA that would not have been if each of the 50 states operated as separation nations. Besides the obvious of the scientific and medical advancements, the common rules for business across states allows for products and many services to flow mostly uninhibited by each states rules (some exceptions apply).

            Having enough resources as a single nation allowed for a common defense which saved the USA a number of times. Apparently this is also one of the reasons some regions of the world fell to colonialism because the various groups that occupied the land were not unified in their goals or defense. It allowed stronger powers to pick of each smaller group separately until the region as a whole was conquered.

            I often times wonder if it would be better managed with more of an EU style system where certain standards are core across all states and then leave each country to truly govern themselves.

            I like Europe a lot, but they've got some problems directly stemming from the lack of a single nation encompassing all of them. Even to-date there is not a single monetary policy in the EU. This lead to things like the GREXIT crisis. The leadership in Brussels can also get stymied by a single contrarian member halting progress such as Hungary frequently stopping aid to Ukraine.

            None of this is to say the USA is perfect or the EU is flawed. There are positives and negatives to both systems. No one has found a perfect system yet.

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            • N nabdad@lemmy.world

              and the founding fathers even put a stipulation that any state unhappy with the union can leave

              What are you referring to?

              H This user is from outside of this forum
              H This user is from outside of this forum
              hexadecimalsky@lemmy.world
              wrote last edited by
              #6

              while no explicit mention of secession, the very act of the revolution and statements such as "...Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,–That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government…" and "...When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another..."have been used to show the idea the founding fathers supported secession.

              Only a handful of times has anyone in the U.S.A. seceded, though most of the times it was just to create a new states in the U.S.A. It was officially outlawed after the C.S.A. seceded and not much of any serious attempt has been made since.

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              • H hexadecimalsky@lemmy.world

                while no explicit mention of secession, the very act of the revolution and statements such as "...Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,–That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government…" and "...When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another..."have been used to show the idea the founding fathers supported secession.

                Only a handful of times has anyone in the U.S.A. seceded, though most of the times it was just to create a new states in the U.S.A. It was officially outlawed after the C.S.A. seceded and not much of any serious attempt has been made since.

                P This user is from outside of this forum
                P This user is from outside of this forum
                partial_accumen@lemmy.world
                wrote last edited by
                #7

                while no explicit mention of secession, the very act of the revolution and statements such as “…Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,–That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government…” and "…When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another…"have been used to show the idea the founding fathers supported secession.

                Neither of those are in the US Constitution. Those are from the Declaration of Independence.

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